inas younis
2004-03-04 14:27:46 UTC
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE> <P>Dear Joyce,</P> <P>LOL, as a arab woman I not only relate to your very accurate and astue description of the verbose and categorical nature of the arab man, but I was also grateful that women like you have enough insight to see beyond the BS, Pardon my french.</P> <P>I hope you take a minute to start a little male reformation by reminding these gentlemen how terribly condescending it is to lecture regurgitated platitudes and attitudes. Lectures make no real reflection of a persons individual personality, except maybe to demonstrate that they have not developed one yet</P> <P>. I suspect that they were being politically correct. according to and in keeping with, thier cultural baggage. Although they will dismiss your dissatisfaction, maybe after cycling through a few more bright women like you, they will recollect your words and perhaps heed them.. I have more faith in their capacity to do so , then I do with the probability that there are more women like you who wont buy into thier psycologically coercive approach towards potential mates. </P> <P>Next girl will probably lap up the lecture and overlook all the red flags. Kudos for not having done so. <BR><BR></P></DIV> <DIV></DIV>>From: "Joyce Lionarons" <***@AOL.COM> <DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>>To: ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in Islam? <DIV></DIV>>Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:03:12 -0500 <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Salaams Eileen and sisters, <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>That must have been John Boswell -- I also have the book, but haven't <DIV></DIV>>read it yet. Unfortunately the scholarship (at least with regard to <DIV></DIV>>Christianity) has been questioned by a large number of scholars, and not <DIV></DIV>>because of anti-gay bias on their part. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>On another subject (heterosexual rather than same-sex marriage), a week <DIV></DIV>>or so ago I wrote talking about the matchmaking my friends were trying <DIV></DIV>>to do for me -- so I should update you on what happened. I've backed <DIV></DIV>>out of the whole thing. I talked to Yusuf at length on the phone a <DIV></DIV>>couple of times, or maybe I should say he talked to me. He lectured at <DIV></DIV>>great length, entirely in generalities! After literally hours of <DIV></DIV>>listening, I still had no idea what he was like, other than verbose. So <DIV></DIV>>no Yusuf for me. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>My friends also came up with a second man, who also spoke in <DIV></DIV>>generalities, again giving no indication of his likes, dislikes, <DIV></DIV>>expectations, etc. Is this an Arabic cultural trait? <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>And I think no matchmaking of that kind for me anyway. I got the <DIV></DIV>>impression from both men that if we did like each other I would be <DIV></DIV>>expected to decide on marriage far too soon for my liking. <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>Joyce <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>kas2eileen wrote on 3/4/2004, 7:40 AM: <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> > salaam, that is what I was hoping someone else would know about. It <DIV></DIV>> > was told <DIV></DIV>> > to me by a gay man, now deceased who researched same sex unions in all <DIV></DIV>> > religions. I have the book Same Sex Unions but could not find a detailed <DIV></DIV>> > reference.Eileen <DIV></DIV>> > ----- Original Message ----- <DIV></DIV>> > From: <***@UMICH.EDU> <DIV></DIV>> > To: <***@PROGRESSIVEMUSLIMS.COM> <DIV></DIV>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 11:16 PM <DIV></DIV>> > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in <DIV></DIV>> > Islam? <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > > Eileen, <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > Can you say more about this? <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > -Mudhillun <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:25 PM -0500 kas2eileen <DIV></DIV>> > > <***@EARTHLINK.NET>wrote: <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not <DIV></DIV>> > uncommon for <DIV></DIV>> > > > gay Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be <DIV></DIV>> > recognized. <DIV></DIV>> > > > Is this true? Eileen <DIV></DIV>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- <DIV></DIV>> > > > From: <***@UMICH.EDU> <DIV></DIV>> > > > To: <***@PROGRESSIVEMUSLIMS.COM> <DIV></DIV>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM <DIV></DIV>> > > > Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex <DIV></DIV>> > union in <DIV></DIV>> > > > Islam? <DIV></DIV>> > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and <DIV></DIV>> > > > > frighteningly! <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds that tie <DIV></DIV>> > people <DIV></DIV>> > > > > together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . . and as <DIV></DIV>> > we've <DIV></DIV>> > > > > seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of <DIV></DIV>> > > > Qur'anic <DIV></DIV>> > > > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a relationship to <DIV></DIV>> > bear <DIV></DIV>> > > > > in the way of just treatment of participants as well as general <DIV></DIV>> > > > > community welfare and spiritual enrichment. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the United <DIV></DIV>> > States <DIV></DIV>> > > > who'd <DIV></DIV>> > > > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that Masjid is <DIV></DIV>> > like, <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I'd love to visit since it sounds like a place were all are <DIV></DIV>> > welcome to <DIV></DIV>> > > > > Allah's graces.) <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive Muslims" <DIV></DIV>> > where <DIV></DIV>> > > > Scott <DIV></DIV>> > > > > Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in Islam. It <DIV></DIV>> > gave <DIV></DIV>> > > > me <DIV></DIV>> > > > > a refreshing insight thereof. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to Kecia <DIV></DIV>> > Ali, <DIV></DIV>> > > > > Omida Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in <DIV></DIV>> > Islam. We <DIV></DIV>> > > > > were talking about reform and she'd said that when the common <DIV></DIV>> > > > > expectation becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest would fall in <DIV></DIV>> > > > > line. I seem to remember that being an expectation or hope from <DIV></DIV>> > some <DIV></DIV>> > of <DIV></DIV>> > > > > the other contributors in the book. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a benefit to the <DIV></DIV>> > > > > spiritual welfare of the community and the parties involved to <DIV></DIV>> > recognize <DIV></DIV>> > > > > same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law question I <DIV></DIV>> > support <DIV></DIV>> > > > > ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil <DIV></DIV>> > > > > institution simply as a matter of equality of legal application and <DIV></DIV>> > > > general <DIV></DIV>> > > > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's not so <DIV></DIV>> > simple. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our respective <DIV></DIV>> > religious <DIV></DIV>> > > > > communities (considering that this is a new phenomenon/question <DIV></DIV>> > w/which <DIV></DIV>> > > > > society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way), it <DIV></DIV>> > seems the <DIV></DIV>> > > > next <DIV></DIV>> > > > > step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and other guides <DIV></DIV>> > > > > (heavy emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing <DIV></DIV>> > this <DIV></DIV>> > > > > bridge that heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd <DIV></DIV>> > > > > recently seen a movie where in a part of North Africa, there had <DIV></DIV>> > been <DIV></DIV>> > a <DIV></DIV>> > > > > community of <DIV></DIV>> > > > miners <DIV></DIV>> > > > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying one <DIV></DIV>> > > > > another and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have been an <DIV></DIV>> > element <DIV></DIV>> > > > > of religious sanctity employed. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant <DIV></DIV>> > Churches <DIV></DIV>> > are <DIV></DIV>> > > > > also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in <DIV></DIV>> > Catholicism <DIV></DIV>> > > > > and even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex <DIV></DIV>> > > > marriage <DIV></DIV>> > > > > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the individuals <DIV></DIV>> > involved. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our <DIV></DIV>> > > > communities <DIV></DIV>> > > > > we will begin to think more about what it means to restrict whole <DIV></DIV>> > groups <DIV></DIV>> > > > of <DIV></DIV>> > > > > people from certain aspects of Islam. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, <DIV></DIV>> > > > > Mudhillun <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <***@STARHUB.NET.SG>wrote: <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere regarding <DIV></DIV>> > same-sex <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this list as to <DIV></DIV>> > > > whether <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > there is, or if there can be, any room for sanctification of <DIV></DIV>> > same-sex <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > Church in the Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > Thank you. <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > Powered by Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > _______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>> > > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > > _______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>> > > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>> > > > > ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>> > > > > <DIV></DIV>> > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims <DIV></DIV>> > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > <DIV></DIV>> > > > _______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>> > > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>> > > > ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>> > > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > <DIV></DIV>> > > _______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>> > > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>> > > ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>> > > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> > _______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>> > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>> > ***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>> > http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims <DIV></DIV>> > <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>> <DIV></DIV>>_______________________________________________ <DIV></DIV>>ProgressiveMuslims mailing list <DIV></DIV>>***@progressivemuslims.com <DIV></DIV>>http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
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