ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #409

2004-03-04 07:21:40 UTC

Salaams Inas,

Well I'm not going to argue about the word literal. Perhaps it is the wrong
word. A bit too strong for me. Yeah why not. Literal was perhaps too
strong a word. How about this. I believe that everything in the koran is
100% relevent and nothign can be dismissed and i try and steer away from
twisting the words. Like when the koran talks of marriage between a man and
woman, I think it requires too much reinterpretation and twisting of words
to allow for gay marriage. On the other hand, in the case of the 'men who
don't need woman' (as its translated in the koran i'm reading), the term is
vague enough to possibly mean gay. So, in that case, we can interpret it as
such. We don't have to, but its possible. I hope you can see where I'm
coming from with respect to what I meant by literal.

well Inas, I don't know arabic well enough to know the difference between
non-masculine men, men who don't have need of woman, and gay in arabic
hundreds of years ago. I doubt any of us do. I would be surprised if even
islamic scholors can figure out all the connotations and what not with 100%
accuracy...What does that word mean in that verse is why I gave alternatives
as to what it implies. Like I said, it could just mean castrated men or
even just men who don't lust after woman. That word most probably does not
mean literally 'non-masculine,' nor do I think we'd be able to agree on the
proper translation of that word. So if we give the benefit of the doubt for
the SAKE OF ARGUMENT that it does include homosexual men...then the rest of
it possibly holds.

But as you ask what about woman? On things the Koran does not specify, you
can reasonably extend the meaning from the koran.
So if we take the assumption from above, we can then assume that such
non-feminite woman would exist as well and the interpretation holds.

Yameen

Message: 2
ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #408 - 10
msgs
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 20:38:05 -0600
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV class=RTE>
<P>interesting perspective.. Thank you for that. </P>
<P> what about women. If we take the quran literally.
Then we should literally interpret that ommission to mean what????</P>
<P>If you take the quran literally then there really is no
room for your interpretation as such.  non masculine
means non masculine, not gay. Unless its explicit right??
Isnt that what literal interpretaions literally mean... to be
literal means not to interpret but to take at face value. A
face value reading does not seem to reinforce
nfo/progressivemuslims
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Message: 3
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be
same-sex union in Islam?
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:14 -0500
salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not
uncommon for gay
Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be
recognized. Is this
true? Eileen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be
same-sex union in
Islam?

From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and
frighteningly!
I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds

that tie people

together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . .

and as we've

seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of

Qur'anic

guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a

relationship to bear in

the way of just treatment of participants as well as

general community

welfare and spiritual enrichment.
I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the

United States
who'd

been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that

Masjid is like, I'd

love to visit since it sounds like a place were all are

welcome to Allah's

graces.)
I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive

Muslims" where
Scott

Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in

Islam. It gave
me

a refreshing insight thereof.
While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to

Kecia Ali, Omida

Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in Islam. We were
talking about reform and she'd said that when the common expectation
becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest would fall in

line. I seem to

remember that being an expectation or hope from some of the other
contributors in the book.
I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a benefit to the
spiritual welfare of the community and the parties involved

to recognize

same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law

question I support

ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil
institution simply as a matter of equality of legal application and

general

social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's not

so simple.

I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our respective religious
communities (considering that this is a new

phenomenon/question w/which

society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way),

it seems the
next

step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and

other guides (heavy

emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing

this bridge that

heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd

recently seen a

movie where in a part of North Africa, there had been a community of

miners

circa early 20th century who were in the practice of

marrying one another

and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have been an element of
religious sanctity employed.
Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant

Churches are

also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in

Catholicism and

even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past.
But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex

marriage

has some benefit to the Islamic community and the

individuals involved.

I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our

communities

we will begin to think more about what it means to restrict

whole groups
of

people from certain aspects of Islam.
May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us,
Mudhillun
--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman

Assalamu'alaikum to everyone,
With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere

regarding same-sex

marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this list as to

whether

there is, or if there can be, any room for sanctification

of same-sex

unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the

Protestant Church

in the Netherlands or of Reform/Reconstructionist

Judaism. Thank you.

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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 23:16:02 -0500
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be
same-sex union in
Islam?
Eileen,
Can you say more about this?
-Mudhillun
--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:25 PM -0500 kas2eileen

salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was not

uncommon for

gay Muslim lovers to commit domestically via adoption and

be recognized.

Is this true? Eileen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be

same-sex union in

Islam?

From Michigan where the democratic process flairs unwieldingly and
frighteningly!
I think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds

that tie people

together, regardless of the genders of those involved . .

. and as we've

seen in the past, the number as well . . . obviously w/a caveat of

Qur'anic

guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a

relationship to bear

in the way of just treatment of participants as well as general
community welfare and spiritual enrichment.
I had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the

United States

who'd

been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that

Masjid is like,

I'd love to visit since it sounds like a place were all

are welcome to

Allah's graces.)
I just finished reading the submission in "Progressive

Muslims" where

Scott

Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in

Islam. It gave

a refreshing insight thereof.
While I was at home with my mother Sunday, we listened to

Kecia Ali,

Omida Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change

in Islam. We

were talking about reform and she'd said that when the common
expectation becomes gender justice in Islam, the rest

would fall in

line. I seem to remember that being an expectation or

hope from some of

the other contributors in the book.
I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a

benefit to the

spiritual welfare of the community and the parties

involved to recognize

same-sex relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law

question I support

ALL who wish to cement a commitment of mutual care in this civil
institution simply as a matter of equality of legal

application and

general

social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's

not so simple.

I'd say if we agree that it's of benefit in our

respective religious

communities (considering that this is a new

phenomenon/question w/which

society is grappling in such a difficult and unique way),

it seems the

step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and

other guides

(heavy emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in

crossing this

bridge that heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . .

though I'd

recently seen a movie where in a part of North Africa,

there had been a

community of

miners

circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying one
another and it seemed pretty sincere and there may have

been an element

of religious sanctity employed.
Certainly Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch

Protestant Churches are

also useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions

in Catholicism

and even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past.
But this is premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex

marriage

has some benefit to the Islamic community and the

individuals involved.

I assume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in some of our

communities

we will begin to think more about what it means to

restrict whole groups

people from certain aspects of Islam.
May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us,
Mudhillun
--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman

Assalamu'alaikum to everyone,
With all the heated debate in the US and elsewhere

regarding same-sex

marriage, I'm curious to find out from members of this

list as to

whether

there is, or if there can be, any room for

sanctification of same-sex

unions in (progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant
Church in the Netherlands or of

Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism.

Thank you.
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Message: 5
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be
same-sex union in Islam?
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 22:24:42 -0800
<html><div style='background-color:'><P><BR><BR></P>
<P><BR>salam,</P>
<P>there are historical references to a caliph (al-amin
of the 9th century) and his openly boyfriend (kawthar.)
and for some reason, there are many other homosexual couples
who were quite accepted. some of these couples, obviously,
had children. i'm still trying to find whether if
some were more accepted because they had children or what. </P>
<P>afdhere<BR><BR></P>
<DIV><STRONG>Afdhere Jama </STRONG><BR><EM>Editorial Director
</EM><BR><STRONG>HURIYAH </STRONG>Publications <BR>S A N F R
A N C I S C O <BR><A
</A><BR><A
[Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
>salaam, I had been told that in the middle ages it was
[Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex union in
>Islam? > > > > From Michigan where the
together, regardless of the genders of those involved . . .
and what can reasonably be expected for a relationship to
> been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what that
Suraj Kugle talks about the place of sexual minorities in
> > > > While I was at home with my mother
Wolf, and Ms. Muhammad talk about change in Islam. We were
> > talking about reform and!
she'd s
> remember that being an expectation or hope from some of
> I guess we have to ask our selves if we think it's a
relationships. Now, obviously as a civil law question I
> social cohesion. Whereas, in a religious context, it's
communities (considering that this is a new
> step is to look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and
heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd
circa early 20th century who were in the practice of marrying
useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in
> > has some benefit to the Islamic community and the
sadly but I hope at least that in some of our &gt!
;communi
--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM +0800 Feisal Abdul
> > > > > Assalamu'alaikum to everyone, >
> > > > > With all the heated debate in the US
curious to find out from members of this list as to
>whether > > > there is, or if there can be, any
(progressive) Islam, similar to that of the Protestant Church
> > > in the Netherlands or of
> > > > > > > > > Powered by Gee!
> ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > > >
http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive
> > _______________________________________________
> > ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > >
http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive
>_______________________________________________
>ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
>http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progres
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:34:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be
same-sex union in
Islam?
Salaams all,
The film I was talking about was "The Path of Love" (Tarik El
Hob) directed =
by Remi Lange and in it, there's mention of the Siwa Oasis in
Egypt. I wish =
I could find more biblio data, I found it's documented in the 1990=20
Encyclopedia of Homosexuality, edited by Wayne Dynes. (New
York: Garland,=20
v. 2, pp. 940-941, 1198).
A few years ago I read "Islamic Homosexualities" (New York
University Press =
1997) edited by Will Roscoe and Stephen O. Murray as well as
"Sexuality and =
Eroticism Among Males in Moslem Societies" (Harrington Park
Press, 1991)=20
edited by Arno Schmitt and Jehoeda Sofer. They also document
same-sex=20
relationships some with official and/or sacred recognition
throughout=20
Islamic cultures/history.
"Seek ye knowledge from the cradle to the grave"
Mudhillun
--On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 10:24 PM -0800 Afdhere Jama=20

salam,
there are historical references to a caliph (al-amin of the

9th century)

and his openly boyfriend (kawthar.) and for some reason,

there are many

other homosexual couples who were quite accepted. some of

these couples,

obviously, had children. i'm still trying to find whether

if some were

more accepted because they had children or what.
afdhere
Afdhere Jama
Editorial Director
HURIYAH Publications
S A N F R A N C I S C O
http://www.huriyahmag.com

To: >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can there be same-sex

union in Islam? >Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:25:14 -0500 >
salaam, I had
been told that in the middle ages it was not uncommon for

gay >Muslim

lovers to commit domestically via adoption and be

recognized. Is this

Sent: Wednesday,
March 03, 2004 9:05 AM >Subject: Re: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] Can
there be same-sex union in >Islam? > > > > From Michigan where the
democratic process flairs unwieldingly and > >

frighteningly! > > > > I

think there's space in Islam for recognizing the bonds that

tie people >

together, regardless of the genders of those invo! lved .

. . and as

we've > > seen in the past, the number as well . . .

obviously w/a caveat

of >Qur'anic > > guidance and what can reasonably be expected for a
relationship to bear in > > the way of just treatment of

participants as

well as general community > > welfare and spiritual

enrichment. > > > > I

had recently heard that there was in Imam here in the United States

who'd > > been in the practice of doing so. (I wonder what

that Masjid

is like, I'd > > love to visit since it sounds like a place

were all are

welcome to Allah's > > graces.) > > > > I just finished reading the
submission in "Progressive Muslims" where >Scott > > Suraj

Kugle talks

about the place of sexual minorities in Islam. It gave >me > > a
refreshing insight thereof. > > > > While I was at home

with my mother

Sunday, we listened to Kecia Ali, Omida > > Safi, Mr. Wolf, and Ms.
Muhammad talk abo! ut change in Islam. We were > > talking

about reform

and! she'd s aid that when the common expectation > > becomes gender
justice in Islam, the rest would fall in line. I seem to >
remember
that being an expectation or hope from some of the other >
contributors
in the book. > > > > I guess we have to ask our selves if

we think it's a

benefit to the > > spiritual welfare of the community and

the parties

involved to recognize > > same-sex relationships. Now,

obviously as a

civil law question I support > > ALL who wish to cement a

commitment of

mutual care in this civil > > institution simply as a

matter of equality

of legal application and >general > > social cohesion. Whereas, in a
religious context, it's not so simple. > > > > I'd say if

we agree that

it's of benefit in our respective religious > > communities

(considering

that this is a new phenomenon/question w/which > > society

is grappling

in such a difficult and unique way), it seems the >nex! t >
step is to
look to the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sharia, and other guides (heavy > >
emphasis on the Qur'an itself if you ask me) in crossing

this bridge that

heretofore hasn't been trodden so much . . . though I'd

recently seen

a > > movie where in a part of North Africa, there had been

a community

of >miners > > circa early 20th century who were in the practice of
marrying one another > > and it seemed pretty sincere and

there may have

been an element of > > religious sanctity employed. > > > >

Certainly

Feisal, Reformed Judaism and the Dutch Protestant Churches

are > > also

useful guides as is the history of same-sex unions in

Catholicism and > >

even cultures of the Asia and Africa in the past. > > > >

But this is

premised on the assumption that we agree that same-sex
marriage > > has
some benefit to the Islamic community and the individuals

involved. > > >

I ass! ume we won't sadly but I hope at least that in

some of our &gt!

;communi ties > > we will begin to think more about what it means to
restrict whole groups >of > > people from certain aspects

of Islam. > > >

May Allah guide us in this and ALL questions that perplex us, > >

Mudhillun > > > > > > > > > > --On Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:17 PM
+0800 Feisal Abdul Rahman > > wrote: > > > > > > > >

Assalamu'alaikum to

everyone, > > > > > > With all the heated debate in the US

and elsewhere

regarding same-sex > > > marriage, I'm curious to find out

from members

of this list as to >whether > > > there is, or if there can

be, any room

for sanctification of same-sex > > > unions in (progressive) Islam,
similar to that of the Protestant Church > > > in the

Netherlands or of

Reform/Reconstructionist Judaism. Thank you. > > > > > > > > > > > >
Powered b! y Gee! - Wireless Access Anywhere > > > > > >
_______________________________________________ > > >

ProgressiveMuslims
http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressive

muslims > >

_______________________________________________ > >

ProgressiveMuslims mailing list > >
http://willo.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims > >

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