Discussion:
ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1 #417 - 1 msg
y2
2004-03-09 07:10:28 UTC
Permalink
Salaams,

Well, to start off with. I have my suspicions as to the intentions of this
question, but I'll bite anyways.

1. A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful. You are NOT allowed to have
sex with slaves as if they're objects.

As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are refered
to in 2 contexts. I of course had questions on reading the English
translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context.
1. The recognition that slaves did exist at that time. And the koran has
no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves

2. 'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the concept of
the modern prisoner of war. And thus, you most certainly withhold from them
some rights, but their children and what not must be born free. You can
most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can and should be exchanged
with your own POWs.

The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there. Its
a matter of responsbility and circumstance. Most certainly in times of war
if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than one
woman. This has nothing to do with a faithfulness. The man is still
required to be faithful to his wives, equally.

The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone. Those who do
are committing a sin. Why would GOD make it difficult for two people who
cannot continue as a family to divorce?

I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before jumping
to the next stage of conclusions.

Yameen
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
Salaams everyone
The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a useful
message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and
however desperate
I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
really withstand
Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
applicable,
i.e., mansukh
b) the ease of divorce
c) the possibility of four wives
d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
prohibition says
nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for one
partner. It may say
some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" -
the B in the
ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
sanctity of sex inside
marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
partners as I
want as long as I own them?
Salaams
Talib
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Kate Ahmad
2004-03-09 22:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Asalaamu alaikum,
I respectfully disagree with your point on polygamy.
While Allah states that it is possible for men to take 4 wives, he then goes
on to state that they must be treated equally and that it is impossible to
do that. So, if read fully, the Quran does not condone polygamy, in fact it
states that it cannot be done in a lawful manner.
So to me, polygamy is not allowed. Allah tests us by making us think about
his words. There would be nothing to discover and strive for if everything
was written in point form. That is why there is a hadith that states 'Any
scholar who issues an opinion will be rewarded once if it is wrong, and
twice if it is right.'

On another point, sex with slaves is not something I can condone in my mind
- can anybody justify it?

Wa'salaam
Aisha
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1
#417 - 1 msg
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500
Salaams,
Well, to start off with. I have my suspicions as to the intentions of this
question, but I'll bite anyways.
1. A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful. You are NOT allowed to have
sex with slaves as if they're objects.
As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are refered
to in 2 contexts. I of course had questions on reading the English
translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context.
1. The recognition that slaves did exist at that time. And the koran has
no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves
2. 'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the concept of
the modern prisoner of war. And thus, you most certainly withhold from
them
some rights, but their children and what not must be born free. You can
most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can and should be exchanged
with your own POWs.
The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there.
Its
a matter of responsbility and circumstance. Most certainly in times of war
if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than one
woman. This has nothing to do with a faithfulness. The man is still
required to be faithful to his wives, equally.
The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone. Those who do
are committing a sin. Why would GOD make it difficult for two people who
cannot continue as a family to divorce?
I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before
jumping
to the next stage of conclusions.
Yameen
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
Salaams everyone
The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a useful
message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and
however desperate
I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
really withstand
Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
applicable,
i.e., mansukh
b) the ease of divorce
c) the possibility of four wives
d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
prohibition says
nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for one
partner. It may say
some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" -
the B in the
ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
sanctity of sex inside
marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
partners as I
want as long as I own them?
Salaams
Talib
_________________________________________________________________
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Barbara Cz.
2004-03-10 08:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Dear Kate,
Th everse on polygyny 4:3 very clearly says about orphans- and this is the cas ewhere polygyny is allowed- when it comes to orphaned women, the time of revelation ( after the Uhud) might confirm it too.
I would recommend the book by Asma Barlas- believingw omen in Islam.
A mus read for a Muslim woman.
Salam,
Barbara

Kate Ahmad <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
Asalaamu alaikum,
I respectfully disagree with your point on polygamy.
While Allah states that it is possible for men to take 4 wives, he then goes
on to state that they must be treated equally and that it is impossible to
do that. So, if read fully, the Quran does not condone polygamy, in fact it
states that it cannot be done in a lawful manner.
So to me, polygamy is not allowed. Allah tests us by making us think about
his words. There would be nothing to discover and strive for if everything
was written in point form. That is why there is a hadith that states 'Any
scholar who issues an opinion will be rewarded once if it is wrong, and
twice if it is right.'

On another point, sex with slaves is not something I can condone in my mind
- can anybody justify it?

Wa'salaam
Aisha
From: "y2"
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol 1
#417 - 1 msg
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500
Salaams,
Well, to start off with. I have my suspicions as to the intentions of this
question, but I'll bite anyways.
1. A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful. You are NOT allowed to have
sex with slaves as if they're objects.
As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are refered
to in 2 contexts. I of course had questions on reading the English
translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context.
1. The recognition that slaves did exist at that time. And the koran has
no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves
2. 'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the concept of
the modern prisoner of war. And thus, you most certainly withhold from
them
some rights, but their children and what not must be born free. You can
most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can and should be exchanged
with your own POWs.
The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there.
Its
a matter of responsbility and circumstance. Most certainly in times of war
if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than one
woman. This has nothing to do with a faithfulness. The man is still
required to be faithful to his wives, equally.
The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone. Those who do
are committing a sin. Why would GOD make it difficult for two people who
cannot continue as a family to divorce?
I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before
jumping
to the next stage of conclusions.
Yameen
Message: 1
From: "talib ul-Haq"
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
Salaams everyone
The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a useful
message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and
however desperate
I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
really withstand
Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
applicable,
i.e., mansukh
b) the ease of divorce
c) the possibility of four wives
d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
prohibition says
nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for one
partner. It may say
some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" -
the B in the
ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
sanctity of sex inside
marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
partners as I
want as long as I own them?
Salaams
Talib
_________________________________________________________________
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Sofia Memon
2004-03-10 18:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Salaams Aisha,

I've always thought that this provision regarding sex with slaves had to
be read in it's historical context and in light of the other, more
numerous provisions that require the freeing of slaves in atonement or
in lieu of other fard acts (such as fasting). I interpret the
provisions about slaves, taken in their totality, to indicate that Allah
is pleased with the freeing of slaves. I have a hard time wrapping my
head around the fact that there is no clear prohibition of slavery and
the excesses it engenders, but I guess it's possible that in the
historical context of the Qur'an immediate freedom of all slaves may
have actual been to the detriment of many of those who were enslaved at
that time including
1)the catastrophic withdrawal of subsistence of too many women and
children
2)physical abuse from everyone, as the (protected) property of no one
---I'm thinking, for example of Somalia: the dissolution of
infrastructure and formal heirarchies has resulted in increased violence
and abuse for everyone...
I realize this is an easily corruptible argument for those who'd like to
see the power status quo remain...
Just some thoughts over lunch. Alhamdulilah for lunch and for relative
freedom.

Sofia


-----Original Message-----
From: progressivemuslims-***@progressivemuslims.com
[mailto:progressivemuslims-***@progressivemuslims.com] On Behalf Of
Kate Ahmad
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 5:57 PM
To: ***@progressivemuslims.com
Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest,
Vol 1 #417 - 1 msg


Asalaamu alaikum,
I respectfully disagree with your point on polygamy.
While Allah states that it is possible for men to take 4 wives, he then
goes
on to state that they must be treated equally and that it is impossible
to
do that. So, if read fully, the Quran does not condone polygamy, in
fact it
states that it cannot be done in a lawful manner.
So to me, polygamy is not allowed. Allah tests us by making us think
about
his words. There would be nothing to discover and strive for if
everything
was written in point form. That is why there is a hadith that states
'Any
scholar who issues an opinion will be rewarded once if it is wrong, and
twice if it is right.'

On another point, sex with slaves is not something I can condone in my
mind
- can anybody justify it?

Wa'salaam
Aisha
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
1
#417 - 1 msg
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500
Salaams,
Well, to start off with. I have my suspicions as to the intentions of
this question, but I'll bite anyways.
1. A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful. You are NOT allowed to
have sex with slaves as if they're objects.
As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are
refered to in 2 contexts. I of course had questions on reading the
English translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context. 1.
The recognition that slaves did exist at that time. And the koran has
no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves
2. 'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the
concept of the modern prisoner of war. And thus, you most certainly
withhold from them some rights, but their children and what not must be
born free. You can most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can
and should be exchanged with your own POWs.
The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there.
Its
a matter of responsbility and circumstance. Most certainly in times of war
if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than one
woman. This has nothing to do with a faithfulness. The man is still
required to be faithful to his wives, equally.
The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone. Those who
do are committing a sin. Why would GOD make it difficult for two
people who cannot continue as a family to divorce?
I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before
jumping
to the next stage of conclusions.
Yameen
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
Salaams everyone
The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a
useful message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and however
desperate I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
really withstand
Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
applicable, i.e., mansukh
b) the ease of divorce
c) the possibility of four wives
d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
prohibition says nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for
one partner. It may say
some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" - the B
in the ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
sanctity of sex inside
marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
partners as I
want as long as I own them?
Salaams
Talib
_________________________________________________________________
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s
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Kate Ahmad
2004-03-10 23:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Salaam Sofia,
They are interesting thoughts. That certainly is a better way of looking at
it. Its just hard to judge from western society where the idea of my
husband taking a slave and having sex with her is so abhorrent. But
everything needs to be looked at in context I guess.

Wa'salaam
aisha
Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
1 #417 - 1 msg
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 13:57:26 -0500
Salaams Aisha,
I've always thought that this provision regarding sex with slaves had to
be read in it's historical context and in light of the other, more
numerous provisions that require the freeing of slaves in atonement or
in lieu of other fard acts (such as fasting). I interpret the
provisions about slaves, taken in their totality, to indicate that Allah
is pleased with the freeing of slaves. I have a hard time wrapping my
head around the fact that there is no clear prohibition of slavery and
the excesses it engenders, but I guess it's possible that in the
historical context of the Qur'an immediate freedom of all slaves may
have actual been to the detriment of many of those who were enslaved at
that time including
1)the catastrophic withdrawal of subsistence of too many women and
children
2)physical abuse from everyone, as the (protected) property of no one
---I'm thinking, for example of Somalia: the dissolution of
infrastructure and formal heirarchies has resulted in increased violence
and abuse for everyone...
I realize this is an easily corruptible argument for those who'd like to
see the power status quo remain...
Just some thoughts over lunch. Alhamdulilah for lunch and for relative
freedom.
Sofia
-----Original Message-----
Kate Ahmad
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest,
Vol 1 #417 - 1 msg
Asalaamu alaikum,
I respectfully disagree with your point on polygamy.
While Allah states that it is possible for men to take 4 wives, he then
goes
on to state that they must be treated equally and that it is impossible
to
do that. So, if read fully, the Quran does not condone polygamy, in
fact it
states that it cannot be done in a lawful manner.
So to me, polygamy is not allowed. Allah tests us by making us think
about
his words. There would be nothing to discover and strive for if
everything
was written in point form. That is why there is a hadith that states
'Any
scholar who issues an opinion will be rewarded once if it is wrong, and
twice if it is right.'
On another point, sex with slaves is not something I can condone in my
mind
- can anybody justify it?
Wa'salaam
Aisha
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] RE: ProgressiveMuslims digest, Vol
1
#417 - 1 msg
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2004 02:10:28 -0500
Salaams,
Well, to start off with. I have my suspicions as to the intentions of
this question, but I'll bite anyways.
1. A muslim is never alloed to be unfaithful. You are NOT allowed to
have sex with slaves as if they're objects.
As I was taught, the idea of 'slaves' as mentioned in the koran are
refered to in 2 contexts. I of course had questions on reading the
English translation of slaves, and it was explained in this context. 1.
The recognition that slaves did exist at that time. And the koran has
no fear addressing this problem and thus declares way to free slaves
2. 'slaves' as those captured in battle has more to do with the
concept of the modern prisoner of war. And thus, you most certainly
withhold from them some rights, but their children and what not must be
born free. You can most certainly marry one of this POWs...They can
and should be exchanged with your own POWs.
The possibility of multiple wives is of course something that is there.
Its
a matter of responsbility and circumstance. Most certainly in times of
war
if many men died, it would be reasonable if a man could have more than
one
woman. This has nothing to do with a faithfulness. The man is still
required to be faithful to his wives, equally.
The 'ease' of divorce is nothing to be exploited by anyone. Those who
do are committing a sin. Why would GOD make it difficult for two
people who cannot continue as a family to divorce?
I would first question the basis of each of your points (1-3) before
jumping
to the next stage of conclusions.
Yameen
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:03 +0000
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] More on Sex
Salaams everyone
The usual take on this sex is that it is sacred etc. This is a
useful message to propogate at a time of HIV/AIDS.
Yet, several issues make me wonder if, however useful, and however
desperate I am to make the argument, this is an argument that can
really withstand
Qur'anic scrutiny. Let's look at the following
a) the phenomenon of temporary marriage - even if no longer
applicable, i.e., mansukh
b) the ease of divorce
c) the possibility of four wives
d) the permissability of sex with any amount of slaves
The prohibition on Zina is a matter completely aside. This
prohibition says nothing about the sanctity of sex or the need for
one partner. It may say
some stuff about fidelity, or the sanctity of marriage.
The dominant Islamic message has been one of 'be faithful" - the B
in the ABC. Does this faithfulness have anything to with the
sanctity of sex inside
marriage? If yes, then why can I have as many other sexual
partners as I
want as long as I own them?
Salaams
Talib
_________________________________________________________________
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