Discussion:
2 questions
Sameer Ahmed
2004-04-24 11:20:55 UTC
Permalink
Asalaam Alaikum,

I have two questions that I have never received satisfactory answers to, and I
wanted to get a "progressive" Muslims' response to them. Can you please
respond directly to me at ***@stanfordalumni.org

1) Why do women have to pray behind men in Islam? The answer I usually get to
this question is that if a woman prayed in front of a man, the man would lose
concentration. But this response seems very male-centric. Why doesn't a woman
lose concentration when she is praying behind a man? Is Islam saying something
about the inherent sexuality of men and women?

2) Why can't women be Imams or Khateebs in Islam? I guess the first question
might partly answer the second part because if men must pray in front of
women, then obviously the Imam would have to be a man. But what bothers me is
that if a community has a female Islamic scholar who is much more knowledeable
than the men in her community, she does not have a religiously sanctioned
venue (the Jumah Friday prayer) to convey her knowledge to the Ummah.

I would really appreciate responses with references to the Quran, Hadith, and
other Islamic scholarly work.

Thanks a lot.

Wasalam,
Sameer


____________________________________________________________________
Arif Ongu
2004-04-24 12:42:55 UTC
Permalink
Assalamu Alaykum

I would also be very interested in the answers to these questions so,
would ask if somebody were to answer them they post their answer to the
list as well.

Thank you

Wassallam

Arif

-----Original Message-----
From: progressivemuslims-***@progressivemuslims.com
[mailto:progressivemuslims-***@progressivemuslims.com] On Behalf Of
Sameer Ahmed
Sent: Saturday, 24 April 2004 9:21 PM
To: ***@progressivemuslims.com
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] 2 questions

Asalaam Alaikum,

I have two questions that I have never received satisfactory answers to,
and I
wanted to get a "progressive" Muslims' response to them. Can you please
respond directly to me at ***@stanfordalumni.org

1) Why do women have to pray behind men in Islam? The answer I usually
get to
this question is that if a woman prayed in front of a man, the man would
lose
concentration. But this response seems very male-centric. Why doesn't a
woman
lose concentration when she is praying behind a man? Is Islam saying
something
about the inherent sexuality of men and women?

2) Why can't women be Imams or Khateebs in Islam? I guess the first
question
might partly answer the second part because if men must pray in front of
women, then obviously the Imam would have to be a man. But what bothers
me is
that if a community has a female Islamic scholar who is much more
knowledeable
than the men in her community, she does not have a religiously
sanctioned
venue (the Jumah Friday prayer) to convey her knowledge to the Ummah.

I would really appreciate responses with references to the Quran,
Hadith, and
other Islamic scholarly work.

Thanks a lot.

Wasalam,
Sameer


____________________________________________________________________
Afdhere Jama
2004-04-24 14:57:18 UTC
Permalink
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***@progressivemuslims.com
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Ola Wam
2004-04-26 10:19:17 UTC
Permalink
salaam aleykum
1)women do NOT have to pray behind men, even Ayatollah Khomeine has agreed
on that.
2)The meaning of "imam" is JUST a prayer leader, it can be a child if he
knows his surahs, Jamal Badawi even claims women can lead prayers for women
AND men.
And ANYBODY can hace a "khutba" for friday prayers, so I cant understand why
a woman cabt hold "khutba".
Reply-To: Muslim community debate and
To: "'Muslim community debate and
Subject: RE: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] 2 questions
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:42:55 +1000
Assalamu Alaykum
I would also be very interested in the answers to these questions so,
would ask if somebody were to answer them they post their answer to the
list as well.
Thank you
Wassallam
Arif
-----Original Message-----
Sameer Ahmed
Sent: Saturday, 24 April 2004 9:21 PM
Subject: [Progressivemuslimsnetwork] 2 questions
Asalaam Alaikum,
I have two questions that I have never received satisfactory answers to,
and I
wanted to get a "progressive" Muslims' response to them. Can you please
1) Why do women have to pray behind men in Islam? The answer I usually
get to
this question is that if a woman prayed in front of a man, the man would
lose
concentration. But this response seems very male-centric. Why doesn't a
woman
lose concentration when she is praying behind a man? Is Islam saying
something
about the inherent sexuality of men and women?
2) Why can't women be Imams or Khateebs in Islam? I guess the first
question
might partly answer the second part because if men must pray in front of
women, then obviously the Imam would have to be a man. But what bothers
me is
that if a community has a female Islamic scholar who is much more
knowledeable
than the men in her community, she does not have a religiously
sanctioned
venue (the Jumah Friday prayer) to convey her knowledge to the Ummah.
I would really appreciate responses with references to the Quran,
Hadith, and
other Islamic scholarly work.
Thanks a lot.
Wasalam,
Sameer
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ProgressiveMuslims mailing list
http://ganymede.nitric.co.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/progressivemuslims
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frawthydog
2004-04-26 16:55:13 UTC
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As Salaam U Alaikum,

I had asked this question once before....

btw, I would be really interested in the fatwa/ruling that Ayatullah Khomeni gave if anyone has access to it....

but from: http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/polirights.html (MWL is an excellent resource for atikuls)


Women as imams

The word imam as used in the Quran means a source of guidance (e.g. Quran 2:124). The meaning is not limited only to prayer. Thus, the leader should guide the people along the path of Islam. In other words, the role of the leader is to follow the teachings of Islam and to act as a role model. (M.F. Osman, "The Contract for the Appointment of the Head of an Islamic State", State, Politics, and Islam, ed. Mumtaz Ahmed, 1986, p. 56). Leading prayer is not a necessary criterion for leadership, although it may be symbolically desirable. The leader himself or herself need not actually lead prayer. The leader can delegate this function to another. Prophet Muhammad, on two occasions, assigned Ibn Umm Maktum to lead prayer in Medina. (As-Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqh us-Sunna, American Trust Publications, 1989, vol. 2, p. 57). On more than one occasion Muadh would pray isha with the Prophet and when he was
finished he would return to his people and, with the Prophet’s permission, he would lead them in
prayer. (As-Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqh us-Sunna, American Trust Publications, 1989, vol. 2, p. 57). Thus, the assumption that the leader must actually lead the prayer is not necessarily valid.

Several ahadith set forth the criteria for leading prayer: an ability to read the Quran, knowledge of the Quran, knowledge of the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, and being accepted by the congregation. The following hadith, related by Ahmad and Muslim and reported by Ibn Masud, states that the Prophet said: "The imam of a people should be the one who is the most versed in the Quran. If they are equal in their recital, then the one who is most knowledgeable of the sunnah. If they are equal in the sunnah, then it is the one who migrated first. If they are equal in that, then it is the eldest. And one should not lead prayer in another’s house without permission." (As-Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqh us-Sunna, American Trust Publications, 1989, vol. 2, p. 56). As-Sayyid Sabiq, a renowned Islamic scholar from al-Azhar, states that the following people are prohibited from leading prayer: someone with a legit
imate excuse not to pray and an incapacitated person. He further states that the following people
are discouraged from leading prayer: an evildoer and someone who changes the religion. (As-Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqh us-Sunna, American Trust Publications, 1989, vol. 2, pp. 56-58).

Thus, maleness was not mentioned as a criterion. Moreover As-Sayyid Sabiq states that it is preferable for a woman to lead other women in prayer and he states that Aishah used to lead the women in prayer. (As-Sayyid Sabiq, Fiqh us-Sunna, American Trust Publications, 1989, vol. 2, p. 58). According to Ibn Rushd, Imam al-Shafii believed that a woman could lead other women in prayer; however, both al-Tabari and Abu Thawr believed that a woman could lead both men and women in prayer. (Fatima Mernissi, The Forgotten Queens of Islam, University of Minnesota Press, 1993, p.33 (citing Ibn Rushd, Bidaya al-Mujtahid wa Nihaya al-Muqtasid, Dar al-Fikr, vol. 1, p. 105)). Furthermore, Umm Waraqa bint Abdallah, an Ansari woman who was well versed in the Quran, was instructed by Prophet Muhammad to lead ahl dariha (ahl dariha means the people of her home where dar means home and can refer to one’s resi
dence, neighborhood, or village), which consisted of both men and women, in prayer. Wiebke
Walther, Women in Islam, Markus Wiener Publishing, 1981, p. 111 (citing Ibn Sad, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, vol. 8, p. 335). The "people of Umm Waraqa’s home" were so numerous that Prophet Muhammad appointed a muezzin for her. (Ibid). Umm Waraqa was one of the few to hand down the Quran before it was written. (Ibid). Also, Umm Waraqa wished to be known as a martyr so she asked Prophet Muhammad to allow her to participate in the Battle of Badr (624 A.D./ 2 A.H.) so that she could take care of the wounded; from that time on Prophet Muhammad referred to her as "the female martyr." (Ibid). In 699 A.D. (77 A.H.) a woman named Ghazala led her male warriors in prayer in Kufa after having controlled the city for a day. (al-Tabari, History of Messengers and Kings, 51:80; Ali Masudi, Gardens of Gold, Dar al-Andalus, Beirut, 1965, 3:139). Not only did she lead Muslim men in prayer, she recited the
two longest chapters in the Quran during that prayer. (Ibid). (It should be noted that many
traditional imams do not accept Ghazala as legitimate precedent because she belonged to the Kharijite sect, a group of puritans, known for their piety, who revolted against Ali and Muawiya; however, this does not necessarily invalidate her actions). Thus, although the practice of women leading prayer is not commonly accepted, one cannot simply conclude that it is prohibited without first conducting honest and unbiased research.
Ma'Salaam


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Afdhere Jama
2004-04-26 18:07:54 UTC
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